NetNews Offline 2/NetNews Offline Volume 2.iso/news/comp/sys/amiga/programmer/6006

Internet Message Format | 1996-08-05 | 13.0 KB

Path: newsflash.hol.gr!news
From: [e-mail] (Mike Lalaounis)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.programmer,comp.sys.amiga.games,alt.sys.amiga.demos,in,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.hardware,comp.sys.amiga.misc,comp.sys.amiga.graphics
Subject: Re: AB3D II beats Quake....
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 03:04:28 GMT
Organization: SOFTWARE INNOVATIONS EUROPE
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <4is66c$[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail]
NNTP-Posting-Host: dmbbs5.hol.gr
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99d/32.168

On 21 Mar 1996 18:12:28 GMT, [e-mail] (Shaun C. Murray) wrote:

>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] says...
>>
>>
>>What sucks++ is that AT is not *capable* to make innovative custom chips
>>(they can say it's not possible, but I know that every console producer makes
>>custom chips).
>
>Every console producer also has more money, more people working on it and more
>time to do it in. AT have none of those advantages.

Unfortunately yes :(

>>So, being not capable to make them, the PowerAmiga is destined
>>to be another PC clone, with just a different CPU (PowerPC: btw, I bought a
>>book and studied it, and I'm very disappointed: IT SUCKS, all the other RISCs
>>are better, starting from the old and cheap Transputers) and a different OS.
>
>Yes it will be a PC clone with a different CPU. You don't seem to get it.
>Hardware no longer matters anymore. Coding in assembler is not required
>anymore. The machines are fast enough that you can code in a fairly portable
>language such C++ and use a game API. This is exactly what Microsft, Apple,
>Sony, Sega et al want people to do. You should want it too as it makes porting
>your game to other platforms a lot easier and means that when I upgrade my
>graphics card to a faster chip with a faster blitter or now with hardware
>sprites, the change gets automatically picked up. This is the gist of RTG.

It allowes NOT for new revolutionary creative solutions though...
Anyway, 'fast enough'?? For what? For DOOMs? Is that all that you think these
machines are capable of? If an AGA 030 Amiga can have AB3D2 then imagine
what these monsters could have if programmed properly...  IF!

>Of course we may lose features like the copper as I don't think any graphics
>hardware out there has it yet but that can be worked around anyway when  you
>have a fast CPU and fast graphics chip.

Yes, but you still have to be able to bang the hardware!

>>But for me, a games maker, the OS is not important for the final software.
>
>It will be on the PowerAmiga. It's the most important part in fact. The OS's
>ability to provide a stable game API so that you can get the best out of
>whatever hardware you have installed is of prime concern. If AT want you to
>write a good game, you should be pressuring them into what should be in the
>game API. Get the specs for Microsofts DirectAPI for an idea.
>
>IMHO, getting close to the Microsoft API would be a good idea for AT as it
>would make games programmers lives a lot easier.

Direct API is the best thing that could be done on Windows game programming
but it will NOT be just as fun as programming dos4gw and have the machine
completely under your commands, needless to say there is also a great loss of
performance! Just see DOOM95 with a much inferior engine than that of AB3DII
on a 486Dx2 66 and then see final version of AB3DII on a 030 50Mhz Amiga! HA!
(consider also further differences between the 2 machines,  AGA slow chip mem)

>>It seems that AT said << *everything* must be done with the OS, direct
>hardware
>>programming will not be allowed anymore >>. I never expected such an unwise
>>(I dont say "silly", because I must think they just aren't capable to make
>>better, for budget problems) decision about the new Amiga management.
>>I recall A1200 and CD32 market died because some "C++ programmers" or
>managers
>>didn't allow direct hardware programming. Cool ignorant people.
>
>It's a very sensible idea indeed though I it would be better if AT could have
>come up with a game API instead of the slow OS calls we have. Something like
>rtg.library?

It is sensible in a way, as it will allow AT (hopefully) to develop faster
better hardware that we will be able to bang later.. hehehe ;)

>Coding games in 68K assembler and directly accessing AGA registers means that
>they won't have any game software on the PowerAmiga when it's released. If
>programmers coded in C++ and used the OS calls, all they need do is recompile
>the source for the PowerAmiga and they have software.

something like that.. but don't expect to have great software this way!
Are you addicted to mediocre software or what?

>>If AT wants this shit from PowerAmiga, then IMHO the *last* Amiga will be the
>>680x0 and AGA based ones. The PowerAmiga will be a PC with just another CPU.
>
>The thing that makes the Amiga viable is the OS. No other machine runs with so
>little resources at such speed. The chips are secondary. Noone cares whats
>under the hood these days. They just want good fast software for as little
>cost as possible. This is what the Amiga does best and always has.

Ummm, AB3DII uses OS?

>There are certain applications such as video that the Amiga does well because
>of the custom hardware but they are pretty niche. If you really want that I'd
>rather have the AGA hardware on an optional card or a replacement that allows
>the video features of the Amiga. Personally I can live without 15Khz screens
>though it would be nice to play games on the big telly.

Hey man, it's not a matter of AGA or not!! It's a matter of freedom to create
and program as you like free of stupid constrains..

>>I bought the PowerPC book (105 US dollars!) because I was enthusiast to code
>>for the PowerAmiga, now I got the sensation it'll be like programming a PC.
>
>You should have bought K&R. A lot cheaper and of more use. Programming in raw
>PowerPC code is a waste of time and resources unless you're writing very low
>level hardware drivers.

*BOTH*  ARE  _ESSENTIAL_!!

>>The A1000/A500 and A2000 were dream computers IMO because of their custom
>>chips and architecture, not because of the lame 1.0/1.1/1.2 OS.
>
>'were' is the operative word. Come the 90's, the OS is of more importance.

Ummm, AB3DII?? 680x0 assembly has A LOT to do with it, believe me! :)

>>I'll keep my 68060 Amiga for *development*, I'll create and test algorithms,
>>graphics, sounds on my Amiga, but if this PowerAmiga is that anonymous
>>machine, I'll support only old Amigas and, before I support a PowerAmiga with
>>no market, I'll prefer to support PC; the same thing with a different CPU and
>>an alive market.
>
>You just don't get it. Learn a high level language and write a generic game
>API and you can support all three markets with a minimum of custom work. This
>way the PC work funds development on the PowerAmiga until it can take over the
>world with it's obvious bennefits in it's lean, mean, fast OS.

One MUST know C better than his mother language but NOT better than assembly!
And there is NO such thing as 'generic game'.. JEEZ!!  LOOK AT AB3DII!!

>I write code, ok it's not games, that works on Windows 3.x, OS2, UNIX, Windows
>95, Windows NT, DOS and if we had a COBOL compiler on the Amiga, the Amiga.
>For me that's a sixth of the development time to reach 6 different markets. I
>could just write for Windows95 as that's probably the biggest market and make
>money but I can make more by writing cross platform code.

Man, game development is a COMPLETELY different thing!!
But since you mention money i take it that you are talking from the programmer's
point of view, the one who aims for big bucks $)

>Single platform development is very costly, especially when the single
>platform has as small a market share as the Amiga. The Amiga being as close as
>possible in abilities to the PC makes cross platform development more
>economically viable.

Costly yes, but also rewarding.. just see AB3D II run on a humble planar AGA 030

>>I never believed that I would have thought this, but now I must judge real
>>facts: the PowerAmiga will born with much more *bad* problems than any
>>quality.
>
>The only possible problem will be AT's support of developers by the sound of
>it as they are going to have to convince them of the benefits of using an API
>rather than banging hardware. They also need to provide a decent API of
>course.

A decent API would be a good idea for most programmers but you just SHOULD NOT
prevent advanced programmers from doing what they can on their own!!

>>Who will support such an anonymous abort? If I wanna program the PC hardware,
>>I program the PC. The PowerPC CPU *sucks bigtime*, if I've to learn another
>>CPU, why should I learn PowerPC and not 80x86 that gives some food back?
>
>Jeez. Answer is not to learn any hardware. Learn how to write cross platform
>code!

WHAT? WHAAAAT!!????!? ARE YOU NUTS? JEEEEEEEEEZZZ!!!!!
NOT KNOW THE HARDWARE? WHAT DO YOU THINK GAME PROGRAMMING
IS ABOUT MAN?  Ideas/algorithms are half of a game, implementation is the other
half, just see AB3DII!!

>>I miss the true Amigas.
>
>I miss peeking and pokeing C64's but I wouldn't want to try and make a living
>doing something similar to that today.

I wish i could!! Are you nuts? Do you prefer COBOL to assembly? Jeeeez!!

>>Well,from the deepest of my heart: FUCK OFF AT, you made it all become
>useless.
>
>Much as I appreciate your programming on the Amiga, an attitude such as that
>will not help AT at all. If you think their plan sucks, talk to them. They
>need as much input as possible from developers if they are to develop a decent
>game developers strategy. They need to know what features you would like in a
>game programmers API.

I agree, some discussion should make things better :)

>Remember though, you currently won't get rich programming on just the Amiga.
>You need to diversify onto other platforms Fabio. Let the PC finance
>development on the Amiga, how's that for you 'ideals'.

Sad but true :(
Us users should insist on programmers doing their crazy innovative stuff in
order for us to get games like AB3DII, but C and APIs should be the programmer's
wish in order to gain big bucks $)... But it seems we are NOT sane at all as i
can see users telling the programmers to use APIs and programmers to insist on
doing their stuff!!!! ;-) Well, at least the programmers would gain money or fun
either way, but us users will gain (get GOOD games) only if programmers are
allowed to have the final word!!
Really, what is better? to have programmers adapt to random card designers or
to have HW designers adapt to programmers' wishes? hehehe ;)

>btw. AFAIK there are two games written in COBOL, Tic-Tac-Toe and Space
>Invaders shipped with our compiler. One of these days I'll get around to
>finishing off a Galaxians clone in COBOL just to say 'Nyah, Nyah Ne Nyah Nyah'
>to the people who say COBOL is only for payroll programs.  ;-)

I can't comment on how much i hate COBOL... anyway you can't be serious can you?
Galaxians is not a real game, not if it's in COBOL anyway!! You seem to mix in
your fuzzy mind 2 different things: algorithms and immersive realities!!
Algorithms and logic can be implemented ANYWHERE!! You don't even need a
computer man, you can just run it in your mind!! But in order for the code to
communicate instantly and naturally with many people you have to make it
completely utterly believable absorbing and fantastic; that's an art that can
ONLY be accomplished when coders see hardware as an extension of their
minds and not get into golden API cages!!
Sorry if i sound aggressive, but the whole story here sucks! If i were to advice
Fabio, i would say that he codes in C and WIN95 for his bank account's good, but
not for his mental good also; APIs kill your mind and that's the sad truth!
sorry...

I wonder why anyone gets the impression that programmers should avoid
reinventing the wheel. On the PC there are tons of DOOM clones and only 3-4
engines!! JEEEEEZ! On the Amiga there are just as many engines as there are
games!! And they are almost all great!! I LOVE THEM!! SHIT MAN! On the PC only
Looking Glass, Bullfrog and Bethesda (Triton too) seem to do their thing free of
constrains but if you think carefully there should be *much* more creative
people there!! Now look at the amiga and tell me!

>--
>Shaun C. Murray                        | e-mail: [e-mail]
>Micro Focus Ltd, Newbury, UK.          | www:    http://www.mfltd.co.uk/~scm/
>



--

*******************************************************************************
* Mike Lalaounis              National Technical University of Athens, Greece *
* [e-mail]          Professional Programmer/Analyst, Databases/AI - 3D/VR *
*                                                                             *
* Assembly,C++,AI,Psychology,Maths,Physics,Astronomy... this trip never ends! *
*-----------------------------------------------------------------------------*
*                     Soon with my own web page... ;-)                        *
*******************************************************************************